Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

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drfish
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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by drfish » 29 Jan 2014, 11:58

I think you did the right thing with regards the sick one, well done :thumbright:

You could well have a mixture of several different mites/lice, but it's more likely just the one at different stages of it's life cycle. A lot like with red mite, you see tiny specs of white/grey, little brown things, big fat red things. All just at different stages.

Keep doing what you're doing, and you should get it under control. I'd be tempted to get some Ficam-W as well to do the house itself, just as a double check. It's about £10 a sachet and makes up 5 litres, plenty for doing a coop.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to a teenage boy - P. J. O'Rourke (thanks Jessie)

It's amazing that people can believe everything is predestined but they still look both ways when crossing the road - Stephen Hawking

1 Wife, 3 children, 1 Staffie Bitch (RIP Marley), 1 Chi-Chi, 1 Tuxedo Cat, 1 part Maine Coon cat, male bearded dragon, Horsefield Tortoise, 2 White Silkies, 1 Frizzle Pekin, 1 CLB, 1 Appenzeller Spitzhauben Cockerel, 1 blue laced Wyandotte, 3 Appenzeller x Wynadotte pullets, 1 Call drake, 3 khaki Campbell ducks, 4 (2 male 2 female?) Aylesbury x Campbells, a breeding colony of Dubia cockroaches.

And a lot of Ibuprofen.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by lukeross » 29 Jan 2014, 12:07

Ivermectin tends to work quickly - certainly within 24 hours, and from memory I think your suggestion of about 8 drops per LF is right. However mites can be resistent to Ivermectin - I've experienced this once, and had to use a few drops of Frontline Cat to clear a particularly unpleasant outbreak.

Regarding culling, as horrible as it is, you definitely did the right thing I think.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by drfish » 29 Jan 2014, 12:28

Still keep going with the ant powder as well. Permethrin is very good against most mites/lice
Giving power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to a teenage boy - P. J. O'Rourke (thanks Jessie)

It's amazing that people can believe everything is predestined but they still look both ways when crossing the road - Stephen Hawking

1 Wife, 3 children, 1 Staffie Bitch (RIP Marley), 1 Chi-Chi, 1 Tuxedo Cat, 1 part Maine Coon cat, male bearded dragon, Horsefield Tortoise, 2 White Silkies, 1 Frizzle Pekin, 1 CLB, 1 Appenzeller Spitzhauben Cockerel, 1 blue laced Wyandotte, 3 Appenzeller x Wynadotte pullets, 1 Call drake, 3 khaki Campbell ducks, 4 (2 male 2 female?) Aylesbury x Campbells, a breeding colony of Dubia cockroaches.

And a lot of Ibuprofen.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by laffinfowl » 29 Jan 2014, 22:16

n180n180 wrote:I applied 4 drops harkamectin 0.35% on it yesterday morning. approx. 11 hours later, I checked and it was still crawling with bugs, more than I had noticed before if anything. Some people have reported complete cure after 24 hours. 11 hour's was probably not enough time to get rid of the creeps. However I have seen ivermectin 1% recommended at 1 drop per 500g of bodyweight, so I am guessing, 4 drops of harkamectin 0.35% was not enough. I will be applying 7-10 drops of it on my other LF chickens with the 7 drops going o my black rock and welsummer as they are the smallest and the 10 drops going on my RIR roo and blue orpingtons.

Anyway this ill chicken of mine refused to die. It's eye's last night were closed, it was breathing heavy, not eating or drinking, and lying slumped on the floor like a dead chicken, even though it was alive and breathing. There was pretty much 0 chance of recovery at this stage, and as it was refusing to die, I could not watch it suffer any longer, so culled it last night.

However, after seeing how many lice and mites (there was atleast 4 different species of crawlies on it, they all looked so different and different in size) were on it, I am now convinced that this is nothing more than a lice/mites issue I have, I do not think my flock has any other disease causing me problems. Two of my other hens have stopped laying also now athough they are still very active, which leaves me with just 3 laying hens. So I will applying the harkamectin to the whole flock tonight, egg withdrawal for7 days and hopefully that will sort the problem. Will update once I know anyway.
Sorry to hear of your woes and sorry i did,nt see this post before now but for your future reference when you need a really quick fix as regards lice/mites then what i,d recommend is Johnsons Mite spray,can be sprayed directly onto a bird and works very quickly.......i bought a bird a long time ago and stupidly did,nt check it until i got it home,i was horrified to find it was absolutely crawling with lice and northern fowl mite,they had nearly drained the bird of blood,used the spray,gave it some high protein food,checked it the next day and only the odd crawler had survived,sprayed again,gave it a few days and then treated with a pour on twice in the following three weeks......the bird turned inside out and never looked back,he turned out to be one of the nicest cocks i ever had and was with me for a good number of years,i think he appreciated being saved by my buying him.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by subruss » 30 Jan 2014, 10:13

You need to treat the shed aswell as the hens, ficam w will solve your problem of mite and any other crawlies :thumbright:

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by n180n180 » 30 Jan 2014, 13:38

Thanks for the tips everyone.

Did the remaining 8 last night after they had gone to roost. 8-10 drops each. Hope these louse are not resistant to the ivermectin, that would be a real blow. Not sure if it's just the mind playing tricks with me, but they all look happier and more cheerful than normal this morn, with apparently much less preening. I guess I will know for sure only when my 2 that have stopped laying in the last few days start laying again (there is no reason they should have stopped laying other than illness or these louse, one just started laying for first time in it's life on 1st of Jan this year, so it should not be stopping now with days getting longer (and it's a RIR), and the other restarted laying in Dec after it had stopped for 2 months).

Will look into getting the coop ficamed, especially with summer on it's way.

I read in some places that you have to apply the ivermectin once a week for 3 weeks in a row. I hope that is not the case as I can handle egg withdrawal for a week, but for 3 weeks! If thats the case I think I will have to look into the Johnsons Mite spray along with the Permethrin powder. I take it there is no egg withdrawal for that laffin? and how does it work, do you have to spray bird all over, or just couple of places like vent/under wings? And what pour on did you treat it with after?
In Pecking Order:

Me, RIR Cockerill, Exchequer Leghorn x RIR Cockerill, Light Sussex, Legbar x unknown barred breed, RIR Hen, Columbine Number 1, Black Star, White Leghorn, Welsummer, Columbine number 2.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by drfish » 30 Jan 2014, 14:02

The reason for repeating the invermectin (as with most pest solutions) is to break the egg laying cycle. While a lot of these potions are effective against lice, they aren't always as effective at killing the eggs, so the eggs hatch in 5-10 days and the whole cycle starts again. It's just to pick up the stragglers really.

I mentioned before, I wouldn't worry too much about the egg withdrawal, as long as you aren't selling them or giving them to kids/elderly. It's doubtful it would do anything to you, but I wouldn't risk it other than with myself or the wife. (more the wife on the off-chance it may bump her off ;) )
Giving power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to a teenage boy - P. J. O'Rourke (thanks Jessie)

It's amazing that people can believe everything is predestined but they still look both ways when crossing the road - Stephen Hawking

1 Wife, 3 children, 1 Staffie Bitch (RIP Marley), 1 Chi-Chi, 1 Tuxedo Cat, 1 part Maine Coon cat, male bearded dragon, Horsefield Tortoise, 2 White Silkies, 1 Frizzle Pekin, 1 CLB, 1 Appenzeller Spitzhauben Cockerel, 1 blue laced Wyandotte, 3 Appenzeller x Wynadotte pullets, 1 Call drake, 3 khaki Campbell ducks, 4 (2 male 2 female?) Aylesbury x Campbells, a breeding colony of Dubia cockroaches.

And a lot of Ibuprofen.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by n180n180 » 30 Jan 2014, 14:10

Oh yes of course, to break the egg cycle. I wonder if the Johnson's powder and ant powder will be enough to do that after the first application of ivermectin?

Am now seriously contemplating eating the eggs myself. Will think about it for a couple of days, but definitely won't be giving any to the kids.
In Pecking Order:

Me, RIR Cockerill, Exchequer Leghorn x RIR Cockerill, Light Sussex, Legbar x unknown barred breed, RIR Hen, Columbine Number 1, Black Star, White Leghorn, Welsummer, Columbine number 2.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by drfish » 30 Jan 2014, 14:55

You can use permethrin alongside the Invermectin anyway, they are two different chemicals so you won't OD by using the other one. I think poultry shield is ammonia based, so again, probably not an issue to use alongside the Invermectin.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to a teenage boy - P. J. O'Rourke (thanks Jessie)

It's amazing that people can believe everything is predestined but they still look both ways when crossing the road - Stephen Hawking

1 Wife, 3 children, 1 Staffie Bitch (RIP Marley), 1 Chi-Chi, 1 Tuxedo Cat, 1 part Maine Coon cat, male bearded dragon, Horsefield Tortoise, 2 White Silkies, 1 Frizzle Pekin, 1 CLB, 1 Appenzeller Spitzhauben Cockerel, 1 blue laced Wyandotte, 3 Appenzeller x Wynadotte pullets, 1 Call drake, 3 khaki Campbell ducks, 4 (2 male 2 female?) Aylesbury x Campbells, a breeding colony of Dubia cockroaches.

And a lot of Ibuprofen.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by n180n180 » 02 Feb 2014, 23:30

Update:

Did the whole flock of 8 on Wednesday night with the harkamectin 0.35%.

Last night did a good check for mites/lice on 6 of them. Didn't see a single thing, so clearly the ivermectin has done it's job.

Good news, my RIR pullet has restarted laying today, 4 days after the treatment, so I'm guessing that pretty much confirms it was a lice/mites issue.

Bad news, I think I overdid it on the 7-8 month old RIR cockerill (it is about 2kg-2.5kg in weight). I gave most of my birds 8 drops (I now realise 8 drops would have most likely been enough even on the biggest of birds), but lost count on the cock (because I got distracted with my helping hand talking) and I think I gave it 11 or 12 drops! Yesterday (3 days after treatment) I noticed it acting a little unusual. Today It is clearly ill, lethargic, crowed only about twice in the whole day, hunched up etc and it has a temperature/fever. It was clearly a lot hotter than the other chickens to touch, clearly feverish, no doubt about it.

Is there any way of getting that ivermectin out of it's body? I really do believe it is the ivermectin doing something inside it's body especially with the fever it has. I don't even know if it will make it till tomorrow.

Is there anything I can do to save the little guy? Seems like I've created another problem for myself trying to solve the first one.
In Pecking Order:

Me, RIR Cockerill, Exchequer Leghorn x RIR Cockerill, Light Sussex, Legbar x unknown barred breed, RIR Hen, Columbine Number 1, Black Star, White Leghorn, Welsummer, Columbine number 2.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by lukeross » 04 Feb 2014, 17:00

Good job on clearing the critters! Googling suggests there isn't really anything you can do for Ivermectin overdose other than wait, hope he pulled through.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by n180n180 » 04 Feb 2014, 21:14

He is still alive and is giving half hearted crows now and again and being the leader of the flock, is trying his best to be here and there and giving warning sounds when he senses danger. However I don't anymore think his problem is the overdose of the ivermectin. A couple of extra drops should not cause much damage, as googling tells me ivermectin toxicity is only possible with massive amounts more than the recommended amount, like maybe 5 times more.

And as he is showing Almost the exact symptoms of my other chickens that have died (the only difference is that he has a fever)....I think I have a disease unfortunately. Seem's like I will have to get a Post mortem done if he dies too, I can't just keep on losing my chickens one after the other, that will work out more costly than a post mortem.

My RIR hen is definitely back on lay now though, she has given 2 eggs since the critters were killed off.
In Pecking Order:

Me, RIR Cockerill, Exchequer Leghorn x RIR Cockerill, Light Sussex, Legbar x unknown barred breed, RIR Hen, Columbine Number 1, Black Star, White Leghorn, Welsummer, Columbine number 2.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by n180n180 » 12 Feb 2014, 22:21

The cockeral did not make it. He died a few days ago. Cut a long story short I think it was more than just lice and mites. It was worms. After I wormed them with flubenvet my remaining flock became a lot healthier and happier. All My hens that had stopped laying restarted their laying.

Lesson learned: Don't rely on ACV, garlic and pumpkin seeds as wormers if your chickens live in a garden. I still however think these natural wormers would be much more effective if the chickens had a larger space to roam over like an acre or so, as they will pick up much less worm eggs from droppings, as droppings will be scattered far wider. Of course I'm probably wrong and no doubt there's many other factors to consider, but I still do believe with the right implementation startegy they can keep worms at bay, because so many people reporting their success around the web can't surely be all wrong? :-k

Anyway, for now, in my garden i'll be worming with flubenvet every 6 months, so thanks all of you who have given me great advice throughout this episode of my chicken keeping.

And I just realised I had better change my signature, as half that flock is gone now.
In Pecking Order:

Me, RIR Cockerill, Exchequer Leghorn x RIR Cockerill, Light Sussex, Legbar x unknown barred breed, RIR Hen, Columbine Number 1, Black Star, White Leghorn, Welsummer, Columbine number 2.

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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by Henwife » 13 Feb 2014, 08:22

I think that those of us who use Flubenvet keep to a twice yearly routine. I dose in September and March, mainly because I like to be sure they're wormed before moult. Now I have so few birds I may discontinue once my big pot of Flubenvet is finished. As the birds are unfenced they have an extensive ranging area should they chose to use the surrounding forest as well as the garden. I used to add garlic bulbs to their water founts as a general tonic, but since they now seem to prefer to use the water from anywhere but there, I don't bother.
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Re: Lethargic for about 3 weeks now

Post by drfish » 13 Feb 2014, 10:52

Preventatives only help, they don't 'prevent' as their title would suggest. The people who report the successes are probably either deluded, or the lucky few that do have acres of space, and good fortune on their side. There is no natural preventative to worms, which is why we use Flubenvet. As much as the hippie fraternity would like you to believe that rubbing sage on your grandmas kitten will prevent heart disease or what ever other tripe they spew out, there is no actual scientific evidence that any of the natural remedies will prevent worms. They *may* assist in keeping worm numbers low, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if there is sufficient eggs ingested, they will be affected. I have this little rant about people giving garlic to dogs to prevent fleas. Garlic is toxic to dogs in large enough quantities, and it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to fleas. Some people just get lucky and say it's the magic garlic. :roll:

I used to worm with flubenvet every 6 months, but even that wasn't enough to prevent one of my drakes dying last year. As I've learnt, ducks contract worms far easier than chickens (mainly because they dabble in each others filth), and it can be a lot more dangerous to their health. Now I worm every 3 months so fingers crossed, that should be sufficient.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to a teenage boy - P. J. O'Rourke (thanks Jessie)

It's amazing that people can believe everything is predestined but they still look both ways when crossing the road - Stephen Hawking

1 Wife, 3 children, 1 Staffie Bitch (RIP Marley), 1 Chi-Chi, 1 Tuxedo Cat, 1 part Maine Coon cat, male bearded dragon, Horsefield Tortoise, 2 White Silkies, 1 Frizzle Pekin, 1 CLB, 1 Appenzeller Spitzhauben Cockerel, 1 blue laced Wyandotte, 3 Appenzeller x Wynadotte pullets, 1 Call drake, 3 khaki Campbell ducks, 4 (2 male 2 female?) Aylesbury x Campbells, a breeding colony of Dubia cockroaches.

And a lot of Ibuprofen.

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